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Reaction of Lugols Solution in Apple Cider Vinegar

Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 7:15 pm
by NickM79
Hello all! I am a chemistry minded health conscious individual who has recently become interested in the use of iodine as a supplement. I have a USP Lugol's solution and they recommend that you take 1 drop in water mixed with a teaspoon of apple cider vinegar to acidify the solution. You mix these lugols and vinegar in about 1/2 cup of water then drink it like.

Needless to say I have noticed that the vinegar cuts the pungent taste of the iodine almost completely and I am trying to figure out what reaction is taking place. I plugged the chemical formula into the converter on this site and got an error message so I don't know if I did it wrong or if that means there really is no reaction. I am guessing if anything that the vinegar is somehow oxidizing the iodine into iodide, but I am not sure. I saw on another website that states how iodine can be used for water purification, that you can add vitamin C to the iodine water to improve the taste before drinking but that to kill off microbes you must wait twenty minutes because the vitamin c neutralizes the iodine. I don't understand how tis reaction takes place. Can someone help me understand?

The lugols is 5% Iodine crystal, 10% Potassium Iodide, and 85% distilled water. The cider vinegar is 5% acidity. If you can offer any feedback please email me at go_real@ymail.com.

Thanks,

NMM

Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:21 pm
by expert
I see you are one of those who likes taking chemicals. Iodine is a very reactive compound and generally not good for your health. I’ve heard on radio that propaganda for using iodine as a supplement. The guy on the radio claimed to be an expert made no distinction between dangerous iodine and relatively harmless and even beneficial iodide.
Iodine is a halogen having chemical formula I2. It has distinct unpleasant taste and brown color. Like other halogens (chlorine and bromine) it kills bacteria and in that respect can be used for treatment of stomach infections and desinfection of drinking water. This was very common in old days when no other drugs were available and water was not chlorinated. Potential side effects of iodine outweigh benefits in treatments of stomach infections, so doctors usually do not recommend using it.
http://doublecheckmd.com/DrugDetail.do? ... 399&view=e
http://doublecheckmd.com/EffectsDetail. ... 9&eid=3319
Using iodine regularly as a supplement is not wise because it will constantly burn mucosa in throat and irritate stomach. There is no need in constant suppression of bacteria in healthy stomach either.
There should be clear distinction between IODINE (I2) and IODIDE (I-).
While iodine is very reactive, it turns into iodide upon reduction (not oxidation as you stated), and iodide is relatively harmless. Iodide is essential component of our diet and usually we get enough of it through table salt that is artificially iodinated (read on the pack). People who avoid sodium diet should take iodine supplements that contain iodides (not iodine), for example sodium iodide.

Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:50 pm
by expert
OK, now about chemicals that you drink. Iodine I2 is not very soluble in water, but easily dissolves in potassium iodide forming so-called polyiodide. This property is the basis for Lugol’s solution
I2 + KI = KI3
KI3 retains all chemical properties of iodine except it is water soluble. What iodine can do to vinegar? Pure vinegar (5% acetic acid in water) will not react with iodine. Apple cider vinegar has other ingredients besides acetic acid, vitamin C (ascorbic acid), for example. It is chemically reacting with iodine turning it into innocent iodide.

http://chemistry.about.com/od/demonstra ... ration.htm

So when people use iodine to disinfect water and then add ascorbic acid after some time it makes sense. It gives IODINE time to work (to kill bacteria) and then turning it into IODIDE with ascorbic acid to prevent killing you.
Apple cider vinegar apparently does the same. Removal of the smell is an indirect indication of the reaction. I recommend you also to try using starch to determine iodine and indicate a moment when it turns completely into iodide. Iodine in the presence of starch turns blue and color disappears after complete reduction into iodide.
Read this article that by the way includes description of dangerous toxic properties of iodine.
http://www.chemie.uni-regensburg.de/Org ... arch-e.htm

Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 3:55 am
by NickM79
Dear Master Chemist EXPERT,

Thank you for replying. My first name is Nick, may I ask what is yours? Are you familiar with something called the "law of halogen displacement"? It seems that this was possibly first described by a doctor back in the 1950's, and I am trying to figure out if he was the first one to come up with the idea or did he just articulate it for the public in his book. I have not seen this "law" and the history of it's discovery detailed much of anywhere's else except through the JCrows.com website, and others selling iodine refer to it also. Being an expert chemist, are you familiar with it?

The doctors name was D.C. Jarvis MD, and alot of his information can be found at www.lugols.com, along with a plethora of other interesting info including the history of lugols iodine's safe use in folk medicine and veterinary. He wrote a book of which I have a copy with the iodine I got from them.

So I was looking at my bottle of Bragg's Organic Apple Cider Vinegar and it does not show that it contains any vitamin C, or (Ascorbic?) acid. Again, in reference to mixing the lugols with a small amount of vinegar, would the reaction with I2 also carry through if the vitamin c was in the form of a mineral ascorbate? What if it is not vitamin C at all but some other yet unidentified factor in the vinegar? This stuff is raw-organic-unfiltered, and there is a natural protien-enzyme-culture that forms in it called "mother of vinegar". This eventually will grow out of control if I do not put it through a coffee filter at some point, which I usually do but then it slowly grows back again. The stuff looks like slime but when i touched it it is indeed more protien like in its feel. You can roll it up into little balls and it is kind of chewy. Doesn't taste bad either. Anyways maybe the iodine is reacting with that stuff?

When you state that lugol's is "so called" polyiodide I take the connotation that maybe you personally don't really like that term or feel it is the best way of describing the (molecule?). Is that true? Do you have other opinions about the structure of this (it it considered a ?) compound? As you can see I don't know what to call this chemical structure other than by it's exact name.

What is the difference between aqueous potassium- "polyiodide" and aqueous water dissolved potassium iodate? I actually don't know if dry potassium iodate dissolves in water. Does it? I have never studied that. But isn't KI3 potassium Iodate? I have some that s saved for a nuclear emergency. I guess KI3 is named differently when in solution with water? Is lugol's an actual chemically bonded molecule? Is molecule the correct name for a single unit of this subsance? Or is it more like an "alloy" of sorts? What happens to the potassium iodide and I2 if you were to evaporate all the water out of the solution?

I looked at the links you provided. I think I will get some starch and try to titrate the apple cider vinegar to see what happens. Is it ok to just use lugols for the iodine solution in that procedure? What kind of specific solution are you getting if you dissolve KI and KI3 in 3 M Sulfuric acid and water. Is that similar to lugols? I guess it would be contaminated then with Sulfur. I was just wondering just in case I ever needed to make some of my own lugols using not scheduled compounds. That's the word. COMPOUND. I remember from chemistry class now!

I think you are right that somehow it is turning the lugols into iodide. But I am not sure. Somehow it is either neutralizing it's caustic effect or binding it up. I did notice how it kind of burned by throat and stomach to take the lugols without adding the vinegar, but it was not horrible. Unless that was what gave me liquid bowels the other day? javascript:emoticon(':lol:')

I disagree about iodine not being good for the health. I believe what the alternative doctors are saying about our greater need for iodine/IODIDE in modern America. It's because of halogen displacent in our bodies and industrial pollution. They say iodine actually helps our bodies detoxify heavy metals and toxic fluoride. We are both entitled to our own opinions on the subject and I am not here to try and get anyone to convert over to becoming an iodophile such as myself. I do love my iodine. Though I have no intentions of taking more than is optimal. And what is optimal is currently up for debate.

Now have you ever heard of the Nascent form of iodine? Is is essentially atomic iodine, manufacturer by a lengthy process of exposing I2 tincture to a high electromagnetic field for several minutes. I have tried this and it is really quite mild and pleasant. In fact I really liked it. This is taken one step futher than the "detoxified" iodine decribed by the late Edgar Cayce.

I will be in touch to see if you are able to respond futher. I am not daunted by the adverse reaction page, mister. I will keep it for reference though. The iodine is good for the thyroid and the whole body. It is heating my body and I see that as a good sign, cause I am usually cold all winter, and I get sick from the shower breathing in all the damn chlorine and TOXIC SODIUM HEXAFLUOROSILICATE and FLUOROSILICIC ACID, WHICH AS WE KNOW ARE BOTH WASTE PRODUCTS OF INDUSTRY. According to the law of halogen displacement this is just one avenue
through which precious iodine is robbed from the human body.

Here is another great question for a chemist? What ionic form of Fluoride exists in oceanwater? If you take seawater down to it's mother-liquor, then dry it to mineral salt content. What form of Fluoride will you have in there?????? Gotta know if you can tell me my Expert Chemist Bud(E)! Is is inert CALCIUM Fuoride or is is some form of Sodium Fluoride. I have read that the former form is the one most commonly found in nature and we already know that after salt Calcium is one of the main ingredients in seawater. This question relates to a concern of mine about the measurable Fluoride content of dried edible naturally iodine rich seaweeds! Assuming it is the inert calcium fluoride then I can report back to the seaweed company that this mystery has been solved. Somebody has to know the answer!

Thanks a lot,

NMM